J. H. Levy says:
Thanks, Stephen! I appreciate it!
Stephen Hoover says:
It's already been stated that EVERY script that makes the finals is read and reviewed by at least 3 readers. That's a minimum.
Bashing SEASON OF THE WITCH. That might have been one of the best scripts written for Nicholl that year. It won, after all, and they have top shelf/some Oscar-winning judges selecting the scripts. The simple fact is what Greenlight and Nicholl have show us is there's a huge gap between top pro writing and talented novice/transition-level writing.
The last season of Greenlight was a horror project. Those writers went on to do a SAW sequel and to professional careers. Many actors also received big breaks from appearing in the films. I wish Greenlight were still around. It did open doors. Sad that it was widely bashed (as AS is being bashed) and they closed up shop.
Best of luck, Jay. Getting this far is quite an accomplishment.
Bashing SEASON OF THE WITCH. That might have been one of the best scripts written for Nicholl that year. It won, after all, and they have top shelf/some Oscar-winning judges selecting the scripts. The simple fact is what Greenlight and Nicholl have show us is there's a huge gap between top pro writing and talented novice/transition-level writing.
The last season of Greenlight was a horror project. Those writers went on to do a SAW sequel and to professional careers. Many actors also received big breaks from appearing in the films. I wish Greenlight were still around. It did open doors. Sad that it was widely bashed (as AS is being bashed) and they closed up shop.
Best of luck, Jay. Getting this far is quite an accomplishment.
J. H. Levy says:
Your belief is incorrect. I have more knowledge of the process than you do.
A Participant says:
Reply to: Why is it in the finals? Do you honestly believe one single person made that decision?
I believe one reader who is a fan of Lovecraft and southern Gothic horror gave it a high number, and once the number is attached, no one can erase it.
Yes a single person.
I haven't seen anyone talk about a Mission Statement for Amazon. No one has the professional expertise to think in those terms. They read scripts and they think, "That sounds pretty good." that's what happened with "Stolen Summer." That's what happened with "Season of the Witch." Long debates led to one winner, which turned out to be the script that ONE person championed and shouted louder than anybody else.
When "Stolen Summer" was picked, either Matt Damon or Ben Affleck was so mad, he walked off the the project. they didn't show that part. Wanted to maintain the illusion that both stars were still on board.
it's important to have the expertise to know when a project is wrong... to cancel it after a lot of money has been spent on development. "The Golden Compass" should have been cancelled, but Bob Shaye was getting ready to retire and he wanted one last roll of the dice.
I believe one reader who is a fan of Lovecraft and southern Gothic horror gave it a high number, and once the number is attached, no one can erase it.
Yes a single person.
I haven't seen anyone talk about a Mission Statement for Amazon. No one has the professional expertise to think in those terms. They read scripts and they think, "That sounds pretty good." that's what happened with "Stolen Summer." That's what happened with "Season of the Witch." Long debates led to one winner, which turned out to be the script that ONE person championed and shouted louder than anybody else.
When "Stolen Summer" was picked, either Matt Damon or Ben Affleck was so mad, he walked off the the project. they didn't show that part. Wanted to maintain the illusion that both stars were still on board.
it's important to have the expertise to know when a project is wrong... to cancel it after a lot of money has been spent on development. "The Golden Compass" should have been cancelled, but Bob Shaye was getting ready to retire and he wanted one last roll of the dice.
A Participant says:
It was set in the Ozark Mountains... one site says Missouri.
George Lucas is a billionaire. He made some money with American Graffiti, then suffered when studio after studio turned down his "Star Wars Project." Alan Ladd at 20th Century Fox said, "Give the kid ten million. If we lose it, we lose it."
Feedback is supposed to make a script better. Certainly everything in the Feedback was an improvement. but what wasn't there was the crushing uncommercial prospects for the concept.
Jay has plenty of time to write a script that could earn a lot of money. The more time he wastes on the Tormentor and Elder Gods, the less chance of winning the big prize.
George Lucas is a billionaire. He made some money with American Graffiti, then suffered when studio after studio turned down his "Star Wars Project." Alan Ladd at 20th Century Fox said, "Give the kid ten million. If we lose it, we lose it."
Feedback is supposed to make a script better. Certainly everything in the Feedback was an improvement. but what wasn't there was the crushing uncommercial prospects for the concept.
Jay has plenty of time to write a script that could earn a lot of money. The more time he wastes on the Tormentor and Elder Gods, the less chance of winning the big prize.
J. H. Levy says:
So, William, if AS doesn't want a screenplay like mine ... Why is it in the finals? Do you honestly believe one single person made that decision? At this point in the process, I already have far more insight into what is going on, but you still want to argue you know more.
Taylor Carmichael says:
Winter's Bone is awesome. It wasn't set in Georgia. And I'm pretty sure they made money on it.
Stephen Hoover says:
Jay,
Glad the notes were useful to you. Best of luck with the project. At least you know what the judges are thinking and what direction they'll send you on if you get the option prize and go into rewrites under their supervision prior to submission to prod cos.
Glad the notes were useful to you. Best of luck with the project. At least you know what the judges are thinking and what direction they'll send you on if you get the option prize and go into rewrites under their supervision prior to submission to prod cos.
A Participant says:
I know EXACTLY what they want.
they want a movie that does what JAWS did - rewrite the rules about hos much a movie can earn.
When Star Wars opened, it became the highest grossing movie in history.
Avatar showed that there is a huge number of people who WANT to see a movie, but can't find anything at the lo9cal multiplex that meets their standards. A complex, new civilization. A powerful love story. A crippled Marine who regains the use of his legs through believable science, not MAGIC.
Magic was a way for a child like Harry Potter to be a viable hero. Doesn't work so well for adults.
Putting this money into AS and setting up rules for Development means one thing... they expect a spectacular movie that is well developed, which means it will satisfy people, which means it will set a record box office.
A movie set before the Civl War, with a hero who is afraid too much knowledge about his opponent will drive him insane....NO.
they want a movie that does what JAWS did - rewrite the rules about hos much a movie can earn.
When Star Wars opened, it became the highest grossing movie in history.
Avatar showed that there is a huge number of people who WANT to see a movie, but can't find anything at the lo9cal multiplex that meets their standards. A complex, new civilization. A powerful love story. A crippled Marine who regains the use of his legs through believable science, not MAGIC.
Magic was a way for a child like Harry Potter to be a viable hero. Doesn't work so well for adults.
Putting this money into AS and setting up rules for Development means one thing... they expect a spectacular movie that is well developed, which means it will satisfy people, which means it will set a record box office.
A movie set before the Civl War, with a hero who is afraid too much knowledge about his opponent will drive him insane....NO.
J. H. Levy says:
You state, "At least, not the kind the Amazon wants for their first one."
I would humbly suggest that you don't know what Amazon wants.
I would humbly suggest that you don't know what Amazon wants.
A Participant says:
Reply to: However, I think it's interesting to read the script with Lovecrafts forbidden knowledge theme in mind. His idea that the more you learn, the more it will drive you insane. Mister hunts these things, but he instinctually avoids seeking knowledge about them. His purpose isn't research or understanding. He's pretty much the opposite of every protagonist I've ever written ...
Good feedback... would have said something like, "The GOAL of Mister is to avoid knowledge, exactly the opposite of every other movie. Will certainly encourage children in the audience to skip homework as the might learn too much of the wrong things.
IF the audience has read Lovecraft, youre home free. The question is, did they get the Reading List before they bought a ticket?
My point was, creating a monster that summons its god is the kind of Monster... that works great in Literature, but doesn't work at all in a MOVIE. At least, not the kind the Amazon wants for their first one.
As a charactr study, the script was shallow. But the Feedback wasn't written by anyone with knowledge of Movies. if they happen to like a literary genre... that explains why it was given a numerical score far higher than it warranted.
Good feedback... would have said something like, "The GOAL of Mister is to avoid knowledge, exactly the opposite of every other movie. Will certainly encourage children in the audience to skip homework as the might learn too much of the wrong things.
IF the audience has read Lovecraft, youre home free. The question is, did they get the Reading List before they bought a ticket?
My point was, creating a monster that summons its god is the kind of Monster... that works great in Literature, but doesn't work at all in a MOVIE. At least, not the kind the Amazon wants for their first one.
As a charactr study, the script was shallow. But the Feedback wasn't written by anyone with knowledge of Movies. if they happen to like a literary genre... that explains why it was given a numerical score far higher than it warranted.
J. H. Levy says:
I completely, agree, Jack.
A good question makes you think far more than any statement. In the changes in my revision, I didn't really take any of the suggestions that were offered, I did answer the questions because it made me think about what a lacking and drove me to correct those flaws.
A good question makes you think far more than any statement. In the changes in my revision, I didn't really take any of the suggestions that were offered, I did answer the questions because it made me think about what a lacking and drove me to correct those flaws.
Jack Eliot Raymond says:
This AS feedback is invaluable---the reviewer obviously has read and enjoys the genre, knows character, plot points, what to leave in/what to leave out and asking important questions on plot holes. It's a good honest review that also tells us what AS hopes might happen to the work. I'm impressed.
Mark Vetanen says:
Hey, Portland Oregon (my home town) has a huge HP Lovecraft film festival every years
http://www.hplfilmfestival.com
Love for some of the Amazon crew to attend, perhaps submit a film too.
http://www.hplfilmfestival.com
Love for some of the Amazon crew to attend, perhaps submit a film too.
J. H. Levy says:
@Carl: I do have the board game, I love Fantasy Flight games! I do like Lovecraftian quite a bit, and I was definitely inspired by his mythos when I wrote this, but it's not a Lovecraftian tale, as hope and family (the positives of family) are a main component. However, I think it's interesting to read the script with Lovecrafts forbidden knowledge theme in mind. His idea that the more you learn, the more it will drive you insane. Mister hunts these things, but he instinctually avoids seeking knowledge about them. His purpose isn't research or understanding. He's pretty much the opposite of every protagonist I've ever written ... But, it's more about self-preservation than a grudge against knowledge.
Aaron: I have that DVD, I ordered it from them the moment I learned of the project. It's absolutely fantastic! Even the receipts they sent were highly thematic :D
Again, I wasn't trying to channel Lovecraft, but it would be disingenuous to suggest there was no influence - the monsters summoning their god, the decaying horror that builds, and an isolated town.
I diverge quite a bit ... Merrin is bright, sunny, and full of hope - nothing can crush that. Mister has the fortitude to overcome his fears.
Aaron: I have that DVD, I ordered it from them the moment I learned of the project. It's absolutely fantastic! Even the receipts they sent were highly thematic :D
Again, I wasn't trying to channel Lovecraft, but it would be disingenuous to suggest there was no influence - the monsters summoning their god, the decaying horror that builds, and an isolated town.
I diverge quite a bit ... Merrin is bright, sunny, and full of hope - nothing can crush that. Mister has the fortitude to overcome his fears.
Aaron Silverman says:
Actually, there is a very good movie of The Call of Cthulhu, and the folks who made it are working on other Lovecraft adaptations.
Carl S says:
@ Jay
Took a brief look at your script. It's really intriguing. H.P. Lovecraft is one of my all-time favorite authors. I believe I've read all his stories along with the stories inspired by his style and his mythos (I've even been playing the "Call of Cthulhu" RPG for more years than I care to publically admit!).
The Amazon feedback is invaluable, especially when thrown together with whatever feedback you get from AS users and other sources. All the best!
P.S. You ever play the board game "Arkham Horror", by Fantasy Flight Games? It's probably the best way to disappear into H.P.'s Arkham for a few hours with your closets friends and go insane! :)
Took a brief look at your script. It's really intriguing. H.P. Lovecraft is one of my all-time favorite authors. I believe I've read all his stories along with the stories inspired by his style and his mythos (I've even been playing the "Call of Cthulhu" RPG for more years than I care to publically admit!).
The Amazon feedback is invaluable, especially when thrown together with whatever feedback you get from AS users and other sources. All the best!
P.S. You ever play the board game "Arkham Horror", by Fantasy Flight Games? It's probably the best way to disappear into H.P.'s Arkham for a few hours with your closets friends and go insane! :)
A Participant says:
I'm asking an important question.
Now that we can read the Feedback, was this judge professional? Did she know anything about how to make a PROFITABLE movie?
That's the second biggest problem, here. If you ask a serious question, no one is willing to think about an answer.
Is there some kind of rule that says we can't say a bad script is bad? that it won't make a dime as a movie? That was the problem with "Season of the Witch." Transporting a witch to be hanged in the middle of a plauge was a bad idea. If you're going to be developing scripts, you can't be afraid or even relucatant to say, "That's a bad idea.:"
Appalachian town. Rural Georgia. 1850. We had a film nominated for Best Picture this year set in rural Georgia, "Winter Bone" and it didn't earn a dime.
OK, here's a trick. Does the premise require Great Music. "High School Musical" and "Grease" and "Glee" won't work without some great songs, and people love Great songs. How do you insert great music into a Lovecraft tale about giant cockroaches from a portal?
the reason there are so many bad judges... and no one says, "You have to find us a PREMISE that will make money." Does the premise allow Great Music? Gone With The Wind had some compelling emotional themes that allowed an orchestral treatment. Giant cockroaches require grunce band medleys.
Now that we can read the Feedback, was this judge professional? Did she know anything about how to make a PROFITABLE movie?
That's the second biggest problem, here. If you ask a serious question, no one is willing to think about an answer.
Is there some kind of rule that says we can't say a bad script is bad? that it won't make a dime as a movie? That was the problem with "Season of the Witch." Transporting a witch to be hanged in the middle of a plauge was a bad idea. If you're going to be developing scripts, you can't be afraid or even relucatant to say, "That's a bad idea.:"
Appalachian town. Rural Georgia. 1850. We had a film nominated for Best Picture this year set in rural Georgia, "Winter Bone" and it didn't earn a dime.
OK, here's a trick. Does the premise require Great Music. "High School Musical" and "Grease" and "Glee" won't work without some great songs, and people love Great songs. How do you insert great music into a Lovecraft tale about giant cockroaches from a portal?
the reason there are so many bad judges... and no one says, "You have to find us a PREMISE that will make money." Does the premise allow Great Music? Gone With The Wind had some compelling emotional themes that allowed an orchestral treatment. Giant cockroaches require grunce band medleys.
Taylor Carmichael says:
What about ice bullets? I kinda like ice bullets. Holy ice, Batman.
A Participant says:
Jays says: It's not about the Civil War ... it's not even about the South. You are the ONLY person to have mistaken it for that.
From the Feedback: The moody Southern Gothic milieu works brilliantly with the foreboding and mysterious tone of the piece, and the impending Civil War lends a sense of Apocalyptic dread.
Gee, it sure looks like I'm not the only one... did you call it a mistake?
There are so many good scripts posted. Scripts that would make PROFITABLE movies. If we can weed out the Elder gods and zombies and time travel, and find a STORY that people want to see... I still think the Kennedy Assassination is the story of the past century, when placed in the right relationship to the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis. Leo DiCaprio is making that one with Martin Scorsese soon.
find the story that people WANT to see... and don't waste time trying to sell them on an idea that NO ONE wants to pay to see as a movie.
That's my point. Mistakes happen.
From the Feedback: The moody Southern Gothic milieu works brilliantly with the foreboding and mysterious tone of the piece, and the impending Civil War lends a sense of Apocalyptic dread.
Gee, it sure looks like I'm not the only one... did you call it a mistake?
There are so many good scripts posted. Scripts that would make PROFITABLE movies. If we can weed out the Elder gods and zombies and time travel, and find a STORY that people want to see... I still think the Kennedy Assassination is the story of the past century, when placed in the right relationship to the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis. Leo DiCaprio is making that one with Martin Scorsese soon.
find the story that people WANT to see... and don't waste time trying to sell them on an idea that NO ONE wants to pay to see as a movie.
That's my point. Mistakes happen.
A Participant says:
The Call of Cthulhu,
The Dunwich Horror,
The Colour out of Space, and
The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Maybe a fan of the genre would enjoy READING them.
as a movie... they don't work.
From the Feedback: The moody Southern Gothic milieu works brilliantly with the foreboding and mysterious tone of the piece, and the impending Civil War lends a sense of Apocalyptic dread.
the description begins: The time is a few months before the Civil War, 1860.
You want to talk about Lovecraft and an Elder god? fine. don't waste your money making a movie about Elder god. It's a dumb idea. Not a big enough market. No teenager is going to invite his girlfriend to see a movie about an Elder god.
Reply to: Science has nothing to do with the mythology that's being created.
Great point. since we live in an age of Science, people don't buy nonsense. Seriosly, look at the reviews for "Iron Man." Fans loved seeing his armor, begged marvel for decades to amke it into a movie.
I don't see ANYONE asking for a movie about elder Gods and "The Colour out of Space."
the time you've chosen, 1860, a battered hero who might be wearing a soldier's uniform... it's just too depressing to watch on the screen.
A portal that's not connected to earth.... yeah, right. maybe i will review your script when I get the chance. I'm getting a clear picture of what's wrong with it.
You're trying to SELL people on YOUR idea... instead of making a movie they already WANT to see. that's how Lord of the Rings took off.
they don't want to see the movie you're describing... not enough to be above #4 in opening weekend box office.
The Dunwich Horror,
The Colour out of Space, and
The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Maybe a fan of the genre would enjoy READING them.
as a movie... they don't work.
From the Feedback: The moody Southern Gothic milieu works brilliantly with the foreboding and mysterious tone of the piece, and the impending Civil War lends a sense of Apocalyptic dread.
the description begins: The time is a few months before the Civil War, 1860.
You want to talk about Lovecraft and an Elder god? fine. don't waste your money making a movie about Elder god. It's a dumb idea. Not a big enough market. No teenager is going to invite his girlfriend to see a movie about an Elder god.
Reply to: Science has nothing to do with the mythology that's being created.
Great point. since we live in an age of Science, people don't buy nonsense. Seriosly, look at the reviews for "Iron Man." Fans loved seeing his armor, begged marvel for decades to amke it into a movie.
I don't see ANYONE asking for a movie about elder Gods and "The Colour out of Space."
the time you've chosen, 1860, a battered hero who might be wearing a soldier's uniform... it's just too depressing to watch on the screen.
A portal that's not connected to earth.... yeah, right. maybe i will review your script when I get the chance. I'm getting a clear picture of what's wrong with it.
You're trying to SELL people on YOUR idea... instead of making a movie they already WANT to see. that's how Lord of the Rings took off.
they don't want to see the movie you're describing... not enough to be above #4 in opening weekend box office.
J. H. Levy says:
By the way, go read The Call of Cthulhu, The Dunwich Horror, The Colour out of Space, and The Shadow Over Innsmouth ... you'll then have a frame of reference from which to view the "monsters" in my screenplay. Science has nothing to do with the mythology that's being created. The "hole" you are referring to is a portal that's not connected to earth, the mist is a harbinger of that, as well as the nature of the creature (Lovecraft would have referred to it as an Elder God).
J. H. Levy says:
It's not about the Civil War ... it's not even about the South. You are the ONLY person to have mistaken it for that. You clearly have issues with reading comprehension.
The reason you can't see the benefit to the feedback is you only want to hear your own voice -- you don't listen to anyone else. Feedback is all about synthesizing the suggestions you're giving. If you don't listen, you can't improve.
You always think you're right; nothing anyone else says has meaning beneath your almighty word. Feedback is lost on you, because you can't accept that you may be wrong.
Yes, much of what they said was stuff I couldn't use - but, there was a lot that generated massive changes that improved the script significantly. Sure, I could have just tossed it aside and said they don't know anything ... but, I believe there is some level of value is genuine criticism, even if a lot is off base.
The reason you can't see the benefit to the feedback is you only want to hear your own voice -- you don't listen to anyone else. Feedback is all about synthesizing the suggestions you're giving. If you don't listen, you can't improve.
You always think you're right; nothing anyone else says has meaning beneath your almighty word. Feedback is lost on you, because you can't accept that you may be wrong.
Yes, much of what they said was stuff I couldn't use - but, there was a lot that generated massive changes that improved the script significantly. Sure, I could have just tossed it aside and said they don't know anything ... but, I believe there is some level of value is genuine criticism, even if a lot is off base.
A Participant says:
We call that an Argument from Authority.
Very popular in the Church in Middle Ages.
Instead of addressing the issues, you CLAIM that someone else has a better opinion.
I'm hoping that Amazon Studios will realize that some scripts got high marks from bad judges and give better scripts a chance.
This is a Development Process. Development is diffficult. Reading someone on a page is easy. Trying to figure out what SHOULD be on the page is difficult.
You have the attitude that makes development difficult. You don't respond to serious criticism.
I've looked at the pages for your script. I don't see any other meaningful criticism that could lead to Development and making the script better.
The first obvious comment is, should this be a Monster script? Monster movies are a recognized genre. You're writing about a wandering Hero prior to the Civil War. the issue should be slavery. Slaves are being sent down into a mine and turned into Zombies. a metaphor for the battle over Slavery that is about to erupt.
Look back at the movies that have bombed in the last year. "The book of Eli" comes to mind. Denzel Washington, known for his christian belief, wants to carry a Bible across an apocalyptic wasteland. Why? No good reason.
Movies NEED good reasons. solid thinking. Just putting a Monster at the bottom of a hole doesn't do it. Maybe 50 years ago, but not today.
Stoker gave us Dracula. driving a stake through the heart while he sleeps in his coffin. You have to find his body during the day to kill him, and the coffin is always hidden or in a fortress. so, lots of conflict.
Your monster lives in a hole in the ground. It has no dimension. No reason for existing. You think a vague biblical reference will carry the story, but it won't.
If you want to rewrite it as a Western, with a theme of Slavery, that would solve your problem with the Monster. But having the hero dip his bullet in Holy Water is ridiculous. There's no clear set of rules on how to kill a Tormentor... because the idea is stuipd. a squid crawls out of a hole and that's going to create darkness over the entire South? give me a break. There have been movie scenes where I felt like throwing popcorn at the screen, it was so stupid. Your script has two of them. without any warning, there's suddenly a mist that is cold enough to freeze living tissue. right.
Very popular in the Church in Middle Ages.
Instead of addressing the issues, you CLAIM that someone else has a better opinion.
I'm hoping that Amazon Studios will realize that some scripts got high marks from bad judges and give better scripts a chance.
This is a Development Process. Development is diffficult. Reading someone on a page is easy. Trying to figure out what SHOULD be on the page is difficult.
You have the attitude that makes development difficult. You don't respond to serious criticism.
I've looked at the pages for your script. I don't see any other meaningful criticism that could lead to Development and making the script better.
The first obvious comment is, should this be a Monster script? Monster movies are a recognized genre. You're writing about a wandering Hero prior to the Civil War. the issue should be slavery. Slaves are being sent down into a mine and turned into Zombies. a metaphor for the battle over Slavery that is about to erupt.
Look back at the movies that have bombed in the last year. "The book of Eli" comes to mind. Denzel Washington, known for his christian belief, wants to carry a Bible across an apocalyptic wasteland. Why? No good reason.
Movies NEED good reasons. solid thinking. Just putting a Monster at the bottom of a hole doesn't do it. Maybe 50 years ago, but not today.
Stoker gave us Dracula. driving a stake through the heart while he sleeps in his coffin. You have to find his body during the day to kill him, and the coffin is always hidden or in a fortress. so, lots of conflict.
Your monster lives in a hole in the ground. It has no dimension. No reason for existing. You think a vague biblical reference will carry the story, but it won't.
If you want to rewrite it as a Western, with a theme of Slavery, that would solve your problem with the Monster. But having the hero dip his bullet in Holy Water is ridiculous. There's no clear set of rules on how to kill a Tormentor... because the idea is stuipd. a squid crawls out of a hole and that's going to create darkness over the entire South? give me a break. There have been movie scenes where I felt like throwing popcorn at the screen, it was so stupid. Your script has two of them. without any warning, there's suddenly a mist that is cold enough to freeze living tissue. right.
J. H. Levy says:
@William -- I have feedback from people with a lot more experience and skills than you that tell me I'm on the right track. Hmm ... let's see, who should I listen to -- people that do this for a living, people I know, professors I've shared it with -- or, let's see ... you?
Sorry, your opinion of this script is nothing to me. You're more than welcome to keep writing, but you've already proven to me to have a biased perspective and a lack of understanding of what it's really about.
Sorry, your opinion of this script is nothing to me. You're more than welcome to keep writing, but you've already proven to me to have a biased perspective and a lack of understanding of what it's really about.