Carey Grayson says:
I would like to play. I am happy to read someone else's script if someone will read mine.
Carey Grayson
"Race for the Galaxy"
Carey Grayson
"Race for the Galaxy"
Gary Dragan Milin says:
Top Reviewer
"I'm sure Gary regrets going public with his thoughts. If only they could have had a civil discussion in private."
I definitely regret this whole episode happened. And I definitely wanted to keep it civil and in private.
When Tracie first expressed her concerns regarding certain aspects of my script, I went to great lengths to explain my position to her via StudioMail. We had several lengthy back and forths on the issues involved. And I think I actually did a pretty good job of explaining my position.
But Tracie wasn't satisfied with having this discussion in private. She wanted to take the debate into the public forum. Which I politely declined because I was getting the distinct impression that all Tracie cared about was creating a public scene around herself.
And that was the end of it. Or so I thought. But then shortly thereafter she posted a review of my script that was even more extreme in her accusations than anything she expressed to me in private. Tracie was clearly determined to create a storm of controversy and ride it for all it was worth.
And for the record, even though I really regret this whole incident happened. I don't regret for a second that I responded to it the way that I did. Some accusations you can't just let stand. And if someone wants to use my script to serve their own purposes and agendas, then I'm going to have something to say about that.
Gary
I definitely regret this whole episode happened. And I definitely wanted to keep it civil and in private.
When Tracie first expressed her concerns regarding certain aspects of my script, I went to great lengths to explain my position to her via StudioMail. We had several lengthy back and forths on the issues involved. And I think I actually did a pretty good job of explaining my position.
But Tracie wasn't satisfied with having this discussion in private. She wanted to take the debate into the public forum. Which I politely declined because I was getting the distinct impression that all Tracie cared about was creating a public scene around herself.
And that was the end of it. Or so I thought. But then shortly thereafter she posted a review of my script that was even more extreme in her accusations than anything she expressed to me in private. Tracie was clearly determined to create a storm of controversy and ride it for all it was worth.
And for the record, even though I really regret this whole incident happened. I don't regret for a second that I responded to it the way that I did. Some accusations you can't just let stand. And if someone wants to use my script to serve their own purposes and agendas, then I'm going to have something to say about that.
Gary
J.B. says:
Top Reviewer
Glenn
Syd Field has a workshop on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te6TZEKLYqc
Syd Field has a workshop on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te6TZEKLYqc
Glen A Bramlitt says:
Top Reviewer
I debated between Save The Cat and The Screenwriters Workbook by Syd Field. I was looking over the Screenwriters wb in the book store, but I just went off of number of reviews on Amazon.
The Syd Field one you mentioned is only $11.56, and Screenwriting 434 is only $10.85, so those are both going into my cart.
The Syd Field one you mentioned is only $11.56, and Screenwriting 434 is only $10.85, so those are both going into my cart.
A Participant says:
INT. AMAZON STUDIOS/ZVG FORUM - CONTINUOUS
Glen - a director I know swears by "Save the Cat," but I thought it covered everything that had already been said a thousand times before... but then again I've been reading screenwriting books since there were only 3 or 4 around.
Also, you should check out Lew Hunter's book; "Screenwriting 434." He was one of my professors at UCLA and he's one of those guys who really got it at a core level.
As for me, "The Screenwriter’s Problem Solver: How to Recognize, Identify, and Define Screenwriting Problems” by Syd Field is a must have. My copy has been opened and closed so much it looks like it's a thousand years old.
BACK TO SCENE
Glen - a director I know swears by "Save the Cat," but I thought it covered everything that had already been said a thousand times before... but then again I've been reading screenwriting books since there were only 3 or 4 around.
Also, you should check out Lew Hunter's book; "Screenwriting 434." He was one of my professors at UCLA and he's one of those guys who really got it at a core level.
As for me, "The Screenwriter’s Problem Solver: How to Recognize, Identify, and Define Screenwriting Problems” by Syd Field is a must have. My copy has been opened and closed so much it looks like it's a thousand years old.
BACK TO SCENE
Glen A Bramlitt says:
Top Reviewer
On a lighter note....
I got my "Save The Cat!" and "The Screenwriter's Bible" from Amazon in the mail today!! Woot!
I immediately saw two mistakes in my script...
One, I most certainly did NOT do the INTERCUT correctly. In fact, INTERCUT -- ALL is for phone conversations. Instead, I should have just established the shots and then used their secondary headings. So kudos to whoever knew not to do it how I did.
Two, not have any punctuation when ending a sentence with a scene heading.
The way I did it.
Titus draws his sword and enters the --
ARENA
Correct way:
Titus draws his sword and enters the
ARENA
Just in case some of you didn't know.
I got my "Save The Cat!" and "The Screenwriter's Bible" from Amazon in the mail today!! Woot!
I immediately saw two mistakes in my script...
One, I most certainly did NOT do the INTERCUT correctly. In fact, INTERCUT -- ALL is for phone conversations. Instead, I should have just established the shots and then used their secondary headings. So kudos to whoever knew not to do it how I did.
Two, not have any punctuation when ending a sentence with a scene heading.
The way I did it.
Titus draws his sword and enters the --
ARENA
Correct way:
Titus draws his sword and enters the
ARENA
Just in case some of you didn't know.
A Participant says:
I'm with you on that, Glen. People should be able to discuss thoughts without it becoming a war or with ad hom attacks. And if the comment has no purpose except to agitate then it's probably best left unsaid.
And I agree about some reviews being bias or having an agenda. And I agree that we should be able to discuss reviews - it's a two way street in this type of community. But no need to take the discussion to extremes.
That said, I think we’ll always have the good, the bad, and the ugly in every online community – seems to be the new paradigm.
And I agree about some reviews being bias or having an agenda. And I agree that we should be able to discuss reviews - it's a two way street in this type of community. But no need to take the discussion to extremes.
That said, I think we’ll always have the good, the bad, and the ugly in every online community – seems to be the new paradigm.
A.T. Barker says:
I did the same thing, Glen and Dan. It was very tempting to step in and offer my own thoughts, but the discussion was so heated that it was best to not add to the fire. IMHO, they both overreacted and it's unfortunate that Tracie chose to leave.
I'm sure Gary regrets going public with his thoughts. If only they could have had a civil discussion in private.
Oh well. What's done is done, I suppose.
I'm sure Gary regrets going public with his thoughts. If only they could have had a civil discussion in private.
Oh well. What's done is done, I suppose.
Glen A Bramlitt says:
Top Reviewer
Yes, her scripts and reviews of scripts are all gone. Just like when they got rid of William Hays. Which really sucks because there went any chance she had at the $10k for this contest.
I agree that a "Thank you" should be given, but sometimes the reviewer may have overlooked something or perhaps too much of their bias was used in reviewing. After a bad review, it's less likely you'll get anyone else to read it. I know everyone has looked at reviews that were there before giving their own. I do it. I look to see what people had to say. Not to toot my own horn, but I take that information and see if I agree.
All that being said, I think there could be some refuting the reviewer to a degree. As someone pointed out, I sort of did this first and it sparked some good conversation. I thanked my reviewer but my main point was to bring up the question of how much history can be negated in a fantasy script.
I agree that a "Thank you" should be given, but sometimes the reviewer may have overlooked something or perhaps too much of their bias was used in reviewing. After a bad review, it's less likely you'll get anyone else to read it. I know everyone has looked at reviews that were there before giving their own. I do it. I look to see what people had to say. Not to toot my own horn, but I take that information and see if I agree.
All that being said, I think there could be some refuting the reviewer to a degree. As someone pointed out, I sort of did this first and it sparked some good conversation. I thanked my reviewer but my main point was to bring up the question of how much history can be negated in a fantasy script.
Glen A Bramlitt says:
Top Reviewer
After I saw that AS doesn't mess around by giving William Hays the boot...I figured it was best not to get pulled into some of these wars that go on.
I saw two posts that were discussing this with Gary and Tracie and while I really wanted to say my two cents...one, it wasn't my fight, and two, I didn't want anything I said to be misconstrued any other way than I intended it.
Still a shame to see her go.
I saw two posts that were discussing this with Gary and Tracie and while I really wanted to say my two cents...one, it wasn't my fight, and two, I didn't want anything I said to be misconstrued any other way than I intended it.
Still a shame to see her go.
. says:
Her account and sripts seem to be gone. Is this right?
Also, I see mention of the five page reviews. Cindy was nice enough to read the first five of my final draft and leave her impression. Personally, I think if someone takes the time to read any of your work and leave constructive critisizm, the only appropriate response is "Thank you." Even if you don't agree with it. If you don't agree or feel they overlooked something take it up in SM. You don't really need to get defensive and start a public thread to refute an opinion.
Also, I see mention of the five page reviews. Cindy was nice enough to read the first five of my final draft and leave her impression. Personally, I think if someone takes the time to read any of your work and leave constructive critisizm, the only appropriate response is "Thank you." Even if you don't agree with it. If you don't agree or feel they overlooked something take it up in SM. You don't really need to get defensive and start a public thread to refute an opinion.
A Participant says:
Glen - actually, I think she did ask for it out of frustration, but she was still in the back and forth with several different people of varying opinions when she went from being "Tracie" to "A Participant."
Jim - I agree that some of what was said by some was shameful... I don't know why people felt the need to jump in and why it had to escalate. Seeing how some of these people are in the forums has driven me from commenting and participating as much as I used to. One guy thought he was being funny - it wasn't funny.
@Glen, you've always been one of those who has maintained an admirable degree of professionalism. My hat's off to you.
Jim - I agree that some of what was said by some was shameful... I don't know why people felt the need to jump in and why it had to escalate. Seeing how some of these people are in the forums has driven me from commenting and participating as much as I used to. One guy thought he was being funny - it wasn't funny.
@Glen, you've always been one of those who has maintained an admirable degree of professionalism. My hat's off to you.
Glen A Bramlitt says:
Top Reviewer
Oh wow. I didn't realize AS actually removed her! I thought maybe she asked to be removed. That's a shame. I know that she was a bit sensitive, but I agree, it should have never escalated.
AS is seriously not messing around.
AS is seriously not messing around.
Jim Kalergis says:
@ Dan wrote:
"She got into it with Gary - Gary won."
I don't think anybody won. The thread in the main forums got way out of hand, and real racism reared its ugly head. (not Gary)
There are some who feel the relative anonymity of these discussion boards is an excuse for them to let their latent a-hole tendencies run wild.
Really shameful.
"She got into it with Gary - Gary won."
I don't think anybody won. The thread in the main forums got way out of hand, and real racism reared its ugly head. (not Gary)
There are some who feel the relative anonymity of these discussion boards is an excuse for them to let their latent a-hole tendencies run wild.
Really shameful.
A Participant says:
Glen:
She got into it with Gary - Gary won.
She was upset with how he portrayed certain things in his ZvG script, he was unapologetic.
They had a back and forth on the forums. Gary felt like she insinuated he was a racist, but she said she was only pointing out that he was using stereotypes and being inconsiderate.
Lots of people jumped in. Many sided with Gary and jumped on her. It got out of hand. She reacted, which was her downfall… then she was voted off the island by A.S.
I saw it going on, didn't like what I was seeing. I resisted the urge to add my thoughts.
I wish more people would have done the same. It’s really too bad… shouldn’t ever happen.
She got into it with Gary - Gary won.
She was upset with how he portrayed certain things in his ZvG script, he was unapologetic.
They had a back and forth on the forums. Gary felt like she insinuated he was a racist, but she said she was only pointing out that he was using stereotypes and being inconsiderate.
Lots of people jumped in. Many sided with Gary and jumped on her. It got out of hand. She reacted, which was her downfall… then she was voted off the island by A.S.
I saw it going on, didn't like what I was seeing. I resisted the urge to add my thoughts.
I wish more people would have done the same. It’s really too bad… shouldn’t ever happen.
Glen A Bramlitt says:
Top Reviewer
This is most likely irrelevant...but what happened to Tracie?
Lauri says:
The reviews (narrative) are based in part on compliance with the notes, but more on how the script worked overall.
The stars (numerical rating) are based on the script as a whole, not on how well it complied with the notes.
Although, this is an entirely subjective and unscientific process. Since everyone has a different scale, I wouldn't read too much into the star ratings.
The stars (numerical rating) are based on the script as a whole, not on how well it complied with the notes.
Although, this is an entirely subjective and unscientific process. Since everyone has a different scale, I wouldn't read too much into the star ratings.
A. D. Norton says:
Lauri said: "Also, compliance with the AS notes is only a small part of my reviews. I don't give stars based on it, but on the overall merits of the script, IMHO."
@Lauri -- not trying to debate but I'm confused about this. If you're not basing your reviews upon AS Story Dept notes at all... what are you basing them on??
Also, I think a better word than "compliance" would be "integrated."
Giving, receiving and *integrating* notes really is an artform.
I've seen some quality writing here! Will be hard to decide I think!
@Lauri -- not trying to debate but I'm confused about this. If you're not basing your reviews upon AS Story Dept notes at all... what are you basing them on??
Also, I think a better word than "compliance" would be "integrated."
Giving, receiving and *integrating* notes really is an artform.
I've seen some quality writing here! Will be hard to decide I think!
A. D. Norton says:
Instead of everyone obsessing about reviews (which are not objective) -- maybe everyone should go over to this thread and give a brief descriptive synopsis -- 2 paragraphs & logline -- of their ZvG script!
It's a fun writing exercise and a great way to highlight your work! Just a thought... I started with mine.
http://studios.amazon.com/discussions/Tx1CP13WZQ8RE86
It's a fun writing exercise and a great way to highlight your work! Just a thought... I started with mine.
http://studios.amazon.com/discussions/Tx1CP13WZQ8RE86
Lisa Scott says:
"if I can't make it through the whole thing I don't leave a review."
but this is your personal practice. i've seen tons of downloads but very few reviews. so maybe that's what people are doing -- not reading entire scripts and not leaving reviews because they couldn't finish it. but i think many other issues come into play which has been discussed quite a bit lately.
i don't understand the comparison with studio notes and why we should hold peer reviews up against that standard.
i think there is some benefit in knowing that your first 5 pages sucked and the reader couldn't finish for whatever reason... hopefully a productive reason that helps you fix the mistakes for your next project.
story development and written pages development are two very different things to critique.
but this is your personal practice. i've seen tons of downloads but very few reviews. so maybe that's what people are doing -- not reading entire scripts and not leaving reviews because they couldn't finish it. but i think many other issues come into play which has been discussed quite a bit lately.
i don't understand the comparison with studio notes and why we should hold peer reviews up against that standard.
i think there is some benefit in knowing that your first 5 pages sucked and the reader couldn't finish for whatever reason... hopefully a productive reason that helps you fix the mistakes for your next project.
story development and written pages development are two very different things to critique.
Antony says:
Personally I don't mind people coming along with 5-page reviews but it's not something I'm going to take note of since AS assess the first 30 pages initially. A standard studio, sure, opinions on the first 5 are useful but not here. I'm grateful for Cindy looking and taking the time to comment but I'll be looking forward to the full review more.
Antony says:
Lisa, if I can't make it through the whole thing I don't leave a review. Maybe a private note.
I get annoyed at people slamming reviewers who give a bad review but who have clearly read the whole thing. But if you post a review pertaining to how terrible the first 20 or 30 pages are, that isn't really helping the writer, it's just a reviewer showing others that they didn't like the part they read. This is what reviews are for, after all. To help improve a script. Some people take pride in their stars so issuing ratings based on part of a script can annoy people. You certainly cannot mark plot without reading the whole script.
Whether a writer takes notice and at least considers that advice is up to them. Dismissing it outright is very short-sighted.
I get annoyed at people slamming reviewers who give a bad review but who have clearly read the whole thing. But if you post a review pertaining to how terrible the first 20 or 30 pages are, that isn't really helping the writer, it's just a reviewer showing others that they didn't like the part they read. This is what reviews are for, after all. To help improve a script. Some people take pride in their stars so issuing ratings based on part of a script can annoy people. You certainly cannot mark plot without reading the whole script.
Whether a writer takes notice and at least considers that advice is up to them. Dismissing it outright is very short-sighted.
Lisa Scott says:
what if someone can't get through all your pages? what if it raises red flags with the tone, structure, formatting, grammar, and dialogue? you want to make someone real ALL those pages before they can comment???!!!! you're delusional. if someone cannot read your story from beginning to end then don't you think it's beneficial to know why? how many movies (rebroadcast on tv where you didn't pay $10) in your lifetime have you sat through when the first 5 minutes were pure crap?