"Cardigan and Yul" is more than fine as a title, but "The Tales of Carnigan and Yul: Disgrace Before the Pyre: Episode one: the Argus Checkmate" is waaay too convoluted.
Having a good title is at least 40% of the battle of trying to make a movie people might want to see. Then concept is the other 50%. Execution is 10% today (unfortunately).
Your concept is also muddled:
"Carnigan and Yul wrote the book on "walking between the raindrops" with a clever mix of clever apathy and wide-eyed ignorance. It's not too hard when your favorite past times are flippin' the bird to authority, arguin' about food and shootin' things with your bow.
Our heroes must face their own self-preservationist tendencies before they can offer anything to the world they have thus far successfully avoided. No longer can they walk between the raindrops if they greet this storm."
What does all that even mean? Sorry bro, I have no clue what your story is about. Is it about a Robin Hood type character? Is it set in medieval times? Is it straight fantasy?
Your synopsis might as well read "Some shit happens, then more shit happens, then the movie ends."
Your synopsis for your script is a little bit more clear...
"THIS IS SPINAL TAP and SNATCH have a baby and leave it in the care of LOTR and ARMY OF DARKNESS. Add the next iconic villian worthy of Lector, The Joker or Vadar; throw a hearty helping of witty original dialogue (see 5 minute dialogue track for example) and you've got the recipe for this action packed, adventure/comedy set in an original fantasy world with strong sequel and franchise potential."
If you're on speed and meth. lol.
You've mixed a mockumentary (Spinal Tap) with a heist film (Snatch) as well as a horror comedy (Army of Darkness) and LOTR.
This movie already came out this year.
It's called "Your Highness." And even with Franco, McBride, Z. Deschanel, and Natalie farking Portman, AND $50,000,000 budget, it totally Bombed! It's one of the worst bombs of the year. It bombed so hard it actually feels like it came out LAST year.
Even if you can make a better similar movie, it's going to be a near impossible sell.
Good luck.
Hey The,
Thanks so much for being the first to post on our forum. I appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion. I hope we can begin a dialogue from here. Since there is no notification of it and I'm not sure you'll be checking back regularly as our forum is just beginning, I'll also send you a personal message letting you know I responded.
Hopefully I'll be able to address some of your issues. First...
The title.
The title of the project is The Tales of Carnigan and Yul: Disgrace Before the Pyre. Suggesting that it's too long or too convoluted is like saying Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is too long a title. Other examples: The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Granted these are established franchises however a franchise, a series of fantasy films, have to start somewhere, no? If you look at the profile image of the project, you'll notice that "The Tales of Carnigan and Yul" is more of a header to "Disgrace Before the Pyre" (the actual title). Like Return of the King, The Two Towers, etc.
Cliche? Perhaps a better argument, however I believe it to be a standard acceptable method. It's something I appreciate in my fantasy series and something I've chosen to emulate. Carnigan and Yul are who the stories are about... much like Harry Potter but there are bigger things going on that they are merely involved in.
Your use of percents are nice, however what fills those percents are opinions, I'm thankful for yours (though obviously disagree). Second...
The Concept (meaning the synopsis... since that's what your quoting).
When I write out a synopsis, I don't give away the story. I won't in the trailer either. I look at it from a story telling standpoint.
I've told you the whos: Carnigan, Yul, Diana, Janus - four primary characters.
Set up their lifestyle and the catalyst for change: Diana entering their lives.
Why it's a issue: She's involved in some way with a serious badass. Meaning Janus
The antagonist or threat: Janus.
I even give the where: Pancrata (have you heard of Pancrata before? I haven't... at least before it popped out of my head) plus the genre is fantasy, so those are clues that it's a fantasy setting.
I've also given you what the characters of Carnigan and Yul need to change or grow.
The synopsis would better be described in your method as: Carnigan and Yul are dudes, shit happens to them, do they change? Which basically describes any good character driven story. I start with the characters. They are the most important.
So then three... would be what you call the "synopsis of the script" which is actually the creative notes. So three...
Creative Notes.
I've mixed one of the greatest comedies in the world featuring cockney characters (one of which is classically dopey... the Yul character) and another famous film of cockney characters representing the vulgar style of witty speech that is exhibited in the character of Carnigan... perhaps I should switch the order to "SNATCH and THIS IS SPINAL TAP..." for the sake of the keeping the characters in their proper order. Army of Darkness is a horror comedy but it's also a fantasy film and some of the tone of it is reflected in the world of Carnigan and Yul. And LOTR is the best and most recognizable fantasy film ever. It is obviously a great influence to any straight up fantasy film. Like Star Wars for sci fi.
Thankfully this movie hasn't come out yet or I'd have written something else. And I have... Caliban and a rewrite for ZvG and numerous other things not posted on the site. I have my influences like anyone but I assure you everything I create is original. It was not influenced by "Your Highness"
Nonetheless you bring up something that my team and I were planning to address, movies like Your Highness and why they don't work. If you look at our videos on the page (you'll find two) there is one of Carnigan and Yul pitching the movie. This is the first of several. In each one we'll be addressing other aspects of the pitch and why exactly what you are bringing up is on the list. Your most helpful contribution has been to inadvertently recommend I put that at the top of the list. So keep an eye out in the coming week or so for that video.... we'll also talk about successful fantasy films.
I will say that The Tales of Carnigan and Yul are only similar to Your Highness in that they are both fantasy and they both contain humor. While containing a lot of humor, it is not the through line of the piece. The two main characters are funny, however every character is not designed for the sake of humor as in a Comedy set in a fantasy setting as in Your Highness. You will find no humor in the character of Janus (I'll rephrase so not to make this seem like a challenge... humor can be found anywhere if someone is making fun of something or tearing it down) nor in his plot.
That's why I chose the genre, fantasy not comedy.... I didn't even include both. There is a lot of action as well but I only marked it as fantasy.
I do have to say however that if the movies, This is Spinal Tap, Snatch, Army of Darkness and LOTR evoke the movie Your Highness to you then either your just attempting to attack any idea you don't like or you haven't actually seen the movies you are speaking of... I guess the third option is both.
If you find time I hope you'll read the script, listen to the dialogue track, keep up with the videos we'll be posting and continue contributing your impute. Perhaps you can turn that unfortunate 10% on its head and become a fan because of execution instead of classic business standards. It starts with us, bro and AS is making strides to give us an opportunity to have things done differently.
Honestly I'd rather hear your opinions than conjecture on the industry's.
Happy trails, talk to you soon.
BCL
Brandon,
Regarding the name of the script, you unfortunately, do not have 70 years of history of being classic literature. You also still fail to realize that "Lord of the Rings: Return of the King" is incredibly easy to follow.
"Lord of the Rings" is the title of the series
"Return of the King" is the title of that book (or movie)
There's no strange names, nor abstract idea to follow. It's pretty straightforward, even though the books are considerably deeper than the title, and the movies.
"The Tales of Carnigan and Yul: Disgrace Before the Pyre: Episode one: the Argus Checkmate"
Is way too abstract. Besides yourself, who is your audience for this movie? You can pretty much scrap the great majority of non-sci-fi/fantasy females. So that leaves guys between the age of 17-35. Out of that demographic, based on name ONLY, how many would choose to see your film, even if it was a perfect and miraculous melding of the previously mentioned movies?
The name of your script/movie is incredibly important if you're an up and coming writer. I've read way too many screenplays where the name of the script was terrible, as was the naming of the characters.
Brandon said:
"I do have to say however that if the movies, This is Spinal Tap, Snatch, Army of Darkness and LOTR evoke the movie Your Highness to you then either your just attempting to attack any idea you don't like or you haven't actually seen the movies you are speaking of... I guess the third option is both."
Notice I didn't say your script, or that your idea was bad. I said your TITLE was bad and that a variation on fantasy/horror-comedy has already been done in May of this year ("Your Highness") and was a dismal box office bomb.
Regardless of execution, a comedy involving:
Demonic Poesession
Witches
Horror
Fantasy Humor
Dick Jokes
Fart Jokes
Pot Smoking in a Fantasy Environment
Failed to register with an audience, even with a good (and simple) title.
And yes, I've seen all of the aformentioned movies (Army of Darkness, Snatch, Spinal Tap) many times than you, and I've been cranking it up to eleven since 1984. But I don't see how a fantasy script has anything to do with "Spinal Tap" unless you're trying to say that because you have cockney hero modeled after David St. Hubbins, which is stretch.
You may be a genius that's able to connect four disparate movies into a fantasy comedy, but if you can pull something like that off, then you need to write something a tad more contemporary so you can start cashing seven figure checks. :)
I'm glad this wasn't a once a done comment. I much prefer dialogue on the forums.
Demonic possession is sorta included. - Army of Darkness I take it
Witches no. - Army of Darkness again.
Horror slightly - Army of Darkness
Fantasy humor... no, not really. Just humor in a fantasy setting. - Army of Darkness... (based on how you are connecting it based on my titles chosen and Your Highness)
Dick jokes, nope... sex humor definitely, dick jokes... I don't believe so - Your highness... no connection to the movies I chose. Well... they talk about dicks in Snatch a little I think.
Fart jokes... definitely not - Your highness
Definitely no drug use, they smoke from pipes in one scene and like in LOTR when Gandalf commented on the weed everyone giggled... people could think they were smokin' up but that isn't the intention. - Your highness
It's almost as if you aren't commenting on what I offered at all but have some preconceived notion.
Snatch - Carnigan's vulgar witty aggressive style of confrontation.
This is Spinal Tap - Yul's aloof also witty way of going through life... plus the film's spur of the moment seemingly improved style (obviously because it was almost all improved) is how Carnigan and Yul interact.
The comedy they provide is a play off these two styles... they are the closest examples of it in other films.
Army of Darkness - The one you've harped on most... but Army of Darkness is actually a good movie in it's own respect... it toes a lot of different lines beautifully and while coming from a horror series... is more a comedy fantasy in my book. There is horror in my script but it is not a driving force. Ash is very much a character that "walks between the raindrops" - he strides through the environment with a constant state of cool even when he's making a fool of himself. And he's also a character outside of his setting (while Carnigan and Yul are a part of their setting... there is something that doesn't exactly belong about them also) and part of the fun of the movie is how people from the world interact with him... the setting is forced to conform with him.
LOTR - The quintessential fantasy film. Neil Gaiman talks about what constitutes fantasy to him (and I'm paraphrasing and in fairness he may have been quoting someone else)... he basically said that a fantasy is only a fantasy if there is a real world where characters find a gateway into something otherworldly. Makes sense with all his work if you are familiar with him. Harry Potter fits the bill as does Narnia. Pan's Labyrinth (especially actually). LOTR doesn't. It's fantasy. Fantasy world, place, whole nine yards... no other world to brace yourself to. You are just thrown in... likewise you are just thrown into Disgrace Before the Pyre. Your guide through the world? Carnigan and Yul two characters that don't really have much regard for the world they live in and as they are pulled in so are we... The only connection given to the "real world" is that Carnigan uses modern expressions: Indian Giver, Tom Dick and Harry, Bring Home the Bacon... and the running gag is that he's always questioned about it... as if he possible started the jokes/expressions. Going off topic some but there it is...
I must say however once you start speaking about my demographic you are straying into conjecture again. Titles are not the only thing that hooks an audience. Besides even in your example... the 17-35 male demographic is HUGE. Also girls make up a large portion of the Harry Potter franchise and they're all grown up now... they are my age group... the age group of the characters of Carnigan and Yul. Plus the female lead of the film is a magic......blahblahblahblahblah... I'm going to pitch it all to you when the video will explain all these same things haha... Know that there is a method to the madness :~)
As I mentioned The Tales of Carnigan and Yul isn't a franchise yet. By this I also admitted to it not being literature. Granted I didn't say the words but you are absolutely correct, it is not literature. I do agree with you. However the long title genuinely doesn't concern me. Disgrace Before the Pyre I believe to be a fine title and rings true with the script on several themes. The Tales of Carnigan and Yul is the series header.
Of my examples you use LOTR, the best for your point, however look to the titles in C.S. Lewis' Narnia series and the Harry Potter's titles get a little out there. It's fantasy flare and widely accepted. I'm sticking with the title and your points on the matter while they won't fall on deaf ears will likely not change my mind. I'll continue to discuss it if you desire but I fear we'll continue to find the impasse of creative differences.
The part where you quote me and then add: "Notice I didn't say your script, or that your idea was bad."
You did say however: "You've mixed a mockumentary (Spinal Tap) with a heist film (Snatch) as well as a horror comedy (Army of Darkness) and LOTR.
This movie already came out this year.
It's called "Your Highness." And even with Franco, McBride, Z. Deschanel, and Natalie farking Portman, AND $50,000,000 budget, it totally Bombed! It's one of the worst bombs of the year. It bombed so hard it actually feels like it came out LAST year."
Suggesting my movie is likened to this... which is why I said that if those titles evoked Your Highness then... etc.
Anyhow, thanks for continuing once again. Glad you've got some taste in film... and Yul is more Nigel Tufnel than David St. Hubbins.
I write contemporary things too... but AS responded well to my fantasy so I decided to keep the ball rolling. Hopefully, if nothing else, our worthwhile conversation will spur you to add this script to your reading pile. Might not be to your tastes but... who knows, right? :~) Thanks again.
BCL
